1875-CC unknown obverse die. I'll call it a 3A for now

Forum for Liberty Seated Quarter questions, hosted by Coinosauras
Batman23
Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 23:54

06 Apr 2017, 10:53 #1

I have this 1875-CC quarter in PCGS 58. After further research, I find that it is an obverse die that is not in Briggs' book. It is paired with reverse A. After you know what you look for it is easier to tell from obverse 2 but they are very close. Here is a photo of my "3A". If there is much interest for doing your own research, I'll tell ya where to find higher resolution photos of another one that I could only wish I owned...  From my initial study with my meager means, research, and abilities, I would say that the "3A" is about three times scarcer than the "1A". I am of course interested in what you experts have to say and I think I can easily defend my argument for a third die paring with an unknown obverse die.
Image
Reply

rhedden
Expert Collector
Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 01:26

06 Apr 2017, 14:04 #2

I responded to your post over on the PCGS US Coin forum, but I'll copy it here as well. 
The obverse of your 1875-cc looks like Briggs obverse 2 to me (though
perhaps you are seeing something I missed). The date position matches
(left edge of "1" under shield line 7), and the lightly impressed stars
with weak centrils are consistent with Briggs' description. The reverse
is quickly identified as Briggs' "A" reverse by the mint mark position.
According to Briggs, the die pairings are usually 1-A and 2-B for this
date, but yours looks like a 2-A to me. Interesting.  Perhaps more research into the die marriages for this date is warranted.
Reply

Batman23
Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 23:54

06 Apr 2017, 23:07 #3

Thanks, I saw the reply over there but I will focus over here as it seems more appropriate. When you look at the dies you will see:
obv2 has a die blob in the rock just above the 5. The 1 lines up to just left of the 7 line in the shield, continue that line up and you pass through the R in Liberty.
But look at the 5s distance compared to the rock and dentils, 41% area above and 59% area below the 5.

obv3 has a die blob left of Liberty's thumb making it look like a continuation of a shield line. The 1 lines up to the center of shield line 7, continue that line further up and you cross the leg of R in liberty.
Now look at the 5 distance as above and you will see 50% area above and 50% area below the 5.

For a high resolution photo of this die and pairing "3A", look at the number two coin on Coin Facts. The toned one PCGS #18764403. Also the same coin in HA auction #3478 on June 2011.
Last edited by Batman23 on 07 Apr 2017, 00:02, edited 1 time in total.
Reply

Pizzamiglio
Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2013, 19:38

07 Apr 2017, 01:59 #4

My vote is for ‘3-A’. 

Clearly there is a die lump above the ‘5’ in Obv2 that is not on Obv3; and there definitely a die lump below the Thenar Space of Liberty’s left (facing) hand on Obv3 that is not on Obv2.

However, the most obvious difference, in my opinion, is Obv3’s lack of the massive die crack that almost encircles Obv2.  Obv2 has a die crack that runs from Star 8, across the top of the cap, to Star 9-13, on down to the tip of Liberty’s right (facing) foot, and continuing diagonally down into the field to the right of the ‘5’ where it intersects another die crack that runs through the date, out the left base of the ‘1’, up the left (facing) edge of the rock and out into the field below Star 1.  In every Obv2 that I’ve seen, some portion of this crack is visible (most notably between the ‘8’ and ‘7’ and between Star 8 and Star 9). No such die crack is noted in either Batman’s specimen or the MS65 referenced.

In my opinion – it is definitely not Obv2.  I’m not sure I would call it three times scarcer than a 1-A though.  In thumbing through the Heritage auctions, semi-randomly selecting coins, I was able to locate at least 3 other examples of ‘3-A’, not including Batman’s or the CoinFacts MS65  – an NGC VF-25, an ANACS EF40 Details and a PCGS XF Details.  Regardless - good eye Batman23!

Just my $0.02   

V/R
Mario
Reply

rhedden
Expert Collector
Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 01:26

07 Apr 2017, 03:20 #5

I looked at quite a few 1875-cc quarters today, and I think it would help if one of you can show us a clear example of what you believe to be obverse "2." (Coinfacts or Heritage is fine with me). It would then be easier for me to compare the coins and see the differences.
Reply

Batman23
Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 23:54

07 Apr 2017, 03:27 #6

Pizzamiglio



Thanks for your thoughts. For my reasoning, I found six 3A coins in Heritage archives. Compare that to 19 1As and 41 2Bs. So I came up with three times scarcer than the 1A. The 41 2Bs would be reduced by at least seven and the 1As reduced by one however because of repeat visits. I did not look too closely for repeats however some of the MS ones were obvious.

For reference, the six Heritage auctions that I found to be 3A are:
June 2015 #7479  VF25
June 2015 #23346  XF details
September 2013 #7887  XF 40 details
June 2011 #3478  MS65 cert# 18764403
March 2009 #8361  VF details
January 2005 #1235  F15

There might be two more from 2005 but the image quality is too poor tell for sure.
Reply

Batman23
Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 23:54

07 Apr 2017, 03:29 #7

The top graded coin in coinfacts, the MS65+ is a 2B. The second coin there is the MS65 and is 3A. These two will make great reference and research images.
rhedden wrote:
I looked at quite a few 1875-cc quarters today, and I think it would help if one of you can show us a clear example of what you believe to be obverse "2." (Coinfacts or Heritage is fine with me). It would then be easier for me to compare the coins and see the differences.
Reply

Pizzamiglio
Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2013, 19:38

07 Apr 2017, 03:59 #8

Batman23 wrote:Pizzamiglio




Thanks for your thoughts. For my reasoning, I found six 3A coins in Heritage archives. Compare that to 19 1As and 41 2Bs. So I came up with three times scarcer than the 1A. The 41 2Bs would be reduced by at least seven and the 1As reduced by one however because of repeat visits. I did not look too closely for repeats however some of the MS ones were obvious.


For reference, the six Heritage auctions that I found to be 3A are:
June 2015 #7479  VF25
June 2015 #23346  XF details
September 2013 #7887  XF 40 details
June 2011 #3478  MS65 cert# 18764403
March 2009 #8361  VF details
January 2005 #1235  F15


There might be two more from 2005 but the image quality is too poor tell for sure.
That math makes sense to me - like I said, I was just thumbing through them.  Nice job - I hope to see your article in the next GJ, detailing the comparisons.  ;)  
Reply

Pizzamiglio
Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2013, 19:38

07 Apr 2017, 04:50 #9

rhedden wrote:I looked at quite a few 1875-cc quarters today, and I think it would help if one of you can show us a clear example of what you believe to be obverse "2." (Coinfacts or Heritage is fine with me). It would then be easier for me to compare the coins and see the differences.
Here are all 3 - just for S&G.....


Obv1 - Date is shifted way to the left.                                                                                                
Image=1em 
 Obv2 - Die crack that runs around the stars and through the date.  Die lump above the 5   
  Image


Obv3 - No die crack, no lump above the 5.  Lump below the Thenar Space on the left (facing) hand.
Image
Reply

Batman23
Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2010, 23:54

07 Apr 2017, 05:22 #10

Nice job on the photos! I would also like to point out the open space above and below the 5. With obv2 you have about 40/60 split distance and with obv3 you have 50/50 split.
Reply